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Alireza Sarrafi, editor-in-chief of the bilingual journal Dilmaj. |
Mr. Alireza Sarrafi is one of our political and cultural activists. From the early days of the Revolution, he sought to serve Azerbaijan by publishing the periodicals Chenlibel and The Voice of Azerbaijan. According to Sarrafi, because no organization associated itself with the name of Azerbaijan during the revolutionary period, he engaged in independent activism for many years, working for Azerbaijan without affiliating himself with any political group.
Beginning in 1980, Sarrafi contributed to the journal Varlıq. Together with several of our prominent intellectuals—including Dr. Hamid Notghi, Master Mohammadali Farzaneh, Professor Gholamhossein Bigdeli, and Dr. Javad Heyat—he worked to preserve our identity and existence. Sarrafi’s writings can also be found in many other periodicals. His extensive research on Dede Qorqud, for example, was published serially in Varlıq. It may be considered one of the earliest substantial works on Dede Qorqud made available to readers in Iran. His discussions of the issues facing Azerbaijan can likewise be found in Chenlibel and The Voice of Azerbaijan. In more recent years, his scholarly work has appeared in Navid-e Azerbaijan, Peyk-e Azar, Shams-e Tabriz, El Dili və Ədəbiyyatı, Mobin, Ruzegaran, and, most recently, Dilmaj.
I conducted the following interview with him on the 12th and 16th days of Farvardin. I attempted to obtain Mr. Sarrafi’s views on several controversial subjects.
In this interview, we discussed the question of a flag for South Azerbaijan; acts of disruption and disinformation in Tabriz and other cities; the Babak Castle events of this year and the previous year; the Mother Language Congress; our national movement; the Women’s Congress; the Shah Golu assembly; and its relationship to the Babak Castle Congress.
Criticizing certain purveyors of disinformation, he remarked with a laugh:
At times, the T.S.T.—the Organization of Turkish Word-Mongers—operates rather effectively among us.
The following is our ninety-minute conversation.
Ali Abbasi: Mr. Alireza Sarrafi, you are currently active in Tabriz as a political figure and journalist. As an Azerbaijani and a political figure, what do you seek? What exactly do you want? What are your goals and objectives?
Mr. Sarrafi: I am not a journalist, although part of my work is journalistic in nature.
What is my objective? That is a very broad question, so my answer will also be broad. Like all Azerbaijanists, I believe my objective is the dignity and prosperity of Azerbaijan and, ultimately, for the Azerbaijani nation to attain the position it deserves among other nations.
I aspire to the prosperity and dignity of my compatriots, and I consider it an honour to work toward that goal.
Ali Abbasi: In your view, what is the present political and social situation in Azerbaijan? What is the current state of national consciousness among the people? Are they moving toward greater self-awareness?
Mr. Sarrafi: Yes. In recent years, national consciousness, Azerbaijani national solidarity, and Azerbaijani-oriented thought have begun to spread rapidly among our people. This consciousness has emerged within public opinion as an undeniable and powerful reality.
This has been achieved through the press, the internet, other media, and, above all, the combined efforts of Azerbaijani activists. This consciousness will continue to grow stronger with each passing day.
Ali Abbasi: What changes have occurred in Azerbaijani-oriented thought and in the elements associated with this national consciousness? Please explain.
Mr. Sarrafi: Initially, national consciousness was inseparable from—and appeared synonymous with—the consciousness of national identity. Our activities therefore generally concentrated on language, folklore, literature, and music, which are among the principal elements of our national identity. Our political demands did not extend beyond that framework.
In recent years, however, national consciousness has matured considerably. The discussion now concerns the establishment of a new administrative order capable of sustaining and protecting our language and literature: federalism. To my knowledge, democracy and federalism are shared demands among most of our national activists and also among most intellectuals who are not directly involved in activism.
We are also witnessing a new development: our national movement is beginning to encompass every area concerning the Azerbaijani nation and to work toward resolving problems across all those areas.
Ali Abbasi: Are we capable of doing this?
Mr. Sarrafi: It is impossible to resolve most of Azerbaijan’s problems without obtaining political power. Nevertheless, identifying these problems and considering possible solutions are among the most important tasks that can be undertaken today.
At this stage, the thinkers of the national movement must open the way for addressing not only language and questions concerning our identity in general, but every other issue as well. In my view, we are taking the first steps in this phase.
Ali Abbasi: Like last year, a congress was supposed to be held this year to mark International Mother Language Day. However, it was prevented from taking place for reasons that remain unclear. Do you think another Mother Language Congress will be held in 1384 [2005–2006]?
Mr. Sarrafi: We will certainly attempt to hold the congress in 1384 [2005].
At the same time, a Mother Language Congress could be held not only in Tabriz but in all our cities. Nor must the activities be limited to a congress. Competitions, poetry readings, musical events, carnivals, and many other activities could also be organized.
Ali Abbasi: Some circles alleged that a member of the congress’s organizing committee was affiliated with other political groups.
Mr. Sarrafi: To the best of my knowledge, none of the members of our organizing committee was affiliated with any political group. Those allegations are false. You may also approach the person to whom you are referring and ask them directly.
I believe that everyone has the right to learn about the views of other groups and to communicate their own views to them. It is true that the person you mentioned attended regular meetings held by the national-religious activists. However, at those meetings, this individual consistently defended the Azerbaijani question and attempted to educate the participants about it.
In other words, this person attended those meetings as someone who loved Azerbaijan and took pride in their mother language. Attending a group’s regular public meetings does not mean being organically active within it or being affiliated with it.
Ali Abbasi: How do you think we should respond to people who leave other political groups and join us?
Mr. Sarrafi: I believe we must approach this question with considerable tolerance. We should not drive away anyone who takes even a single step toward us.
Our work will progress more successfully when those who were once strangers become one with us. Rather than obstructing us, it is better for them to accompany us—provided that they do not act against us or stand in our way.
Even if they do not open a new path for our movement, they should allow it to continue along its course. I believe that the national movement belongs to our entire nation. It is not a movement monopolized by any particular ideological current or political organization.
Ali Abbasi: Do you mean that every Azerbaijani can participate in the national movement?
Mr. Sarrafi: Can everyone not emphasize a different dimension of our national demands?
The demands of our national movement encompass the full range of issues affecting the entire Azerbaijani nation. There is no doubt that the movement can include people on the right and the left, as well as adherents of many different schools of thought who defend Azerbaijan. Naturally, however, no movement or current that acts against Azerbaijan can be part of the national movement.
Ali Abbasi: Some nationalist friends believe that people holding other political views should not be allowed to participate in our national movement. For example, they highlight an individual’s past affiliations and argue that this person has no right to advocate our national demands.
Mr. Sarrafi: I do not believe that all nationalists hold this view. Perhaps some of them think this way.
In my view, a person’s present position is more important.
Ali Abbasi: Different tendencies exist within our movement. Some people are more radical, while others are more conservative. Should we exclude them from the movement?
Mr. Sarrafi: I believe it is in our interest—and in the interest of every political individual or group—not to reject those who are slightly more radical or slightly more conservative than ourselves. We should not open fronts against them but keep them alongside us. There must be room for everyone.
Radicals and conservatives may each have particular roles and responsibilities. Palestine needs both Hamas and Fatah.
We should remember that many conditions change over time. They—or perhaps even we ourselves—may become more radical or more conservative in the future. Destroying the trenches behind and ahead of us contradicts the principles of struggle. The time may come when we must change our position. How could we then take shelter in a trench that we destroyed with our own hands?
Ali Abbasi: What about other political groups?
Mr. Sarrafi: It is appropriate to maintain contact and negotiate with political groups and individuals who do not consider themselves part of the national movement but remain interested in it. Entrusting them with the movement’s work, however, would be entirely wrong.
We should maintain channels of communication with them and attempt to bring their sincere members into step with us.
Ultimately, such individuals and groups must clearly state their position. Will they defend Azerbaijan’s national interests, or will they ultimately side with the chauvinists?
Ali Abbasi: Why do you think some people enter into conflict with everyone even though they themselves cannot accomplish anything significant?
Mr. Sarrafi: If a movement seeks to grow, it must possess the power of attraction, not repulsion. It must strive to draw outside forces into itself rather than driving those already inside away.
A weak manager does not appreciate a capable employee. A weak manager and weak employees will produce weak work.
Great work can be accomplished only by capable managers and capable employees. Every organization must continually renew itself, and both its leaders and its members must improve their skills and knowledge with each passing day.
Ali Abbasi: Mr. Sarrafi, a deeply troubling atmosphere exists in several Azerbaijani cities, including Tabriz. Unfortunately, whenever someone attempts to take a step or undertake some work for the national movement, they are immediately labelled. By attaching a different label to each person and spreading disinformation about political and cultural figures, some people attempt to damage their credibility, dignity, and reputation. Is that not the case? Do you think such a toxic atmosphere exists only in Tabriz, or is it also present in other cities?
Mr. Sarrafi: I believe this situation exists, to varying degrees, in our other cities as well. Conditions in Tabriz are not dramatically different. Indeed, they are better than in some of our other cities.
Ali Abbasi: What can be done to eliminate this toxic atmosphere? How can we change this hostile or negative climate? What should we do?
Mr. Sarrafi: Ali Bey, the atmosphere is not quite so hostile! What has happened?
It would have been more appropriate to ask, “What should we not do?” rather than “What should we do?”
One solution is to refrain from contributing to this negative atmosphere ourselves. If someone speaks against me or spreads disinformation about me, I should not retaliate by doing the same to them. I must not slander another person merely to defend myself.
The only thing that must be defended is the movement’s collective credibility. If attacks against me do not harm the movement, let them attack me. If they do harm it, I must put myself aside and defend the movement.
Another solution is for our periodicals and websites to exercise caution. When they receive submissions attacking or discrediting individuals, they should publish them only after conducting appropriate checks. They must examine the source of the allegations and determine how many credible people corroborate them.
Who is making the accusations? Is the author a recognized individual, or is an unknown and fictitious person using a false signature to attack a well-known figure?
I do not believe that someone who genuinely considers themselves a nationalist would ordinarily engage in such conduct. These activities may be carried out by our chauvinist adversaries, who are capable of spreading such rumours. We all know that periodicals published inside Iran are sometimes compelled to print defamatory material. The same material may then be submitted to websites under fabricated names. Unlike newspapers, however, websites possess considerable freedom. They must exercise caution and refuse to publish such exchanges.
Fortunately, many of our websites do not publish these malicious writings, although one or two occasionally lose control.
Ali Abbasi: As the Babak Castle Congress approaches, discussion of it is increasing. It has been decided that this year’s national congress will take place on the ninth and tenth days of Tir. On the other hand, it is said that several individuals in Tabriz are encouraging people to assemble at Shah Golu rather than travel to Babak Castle this year—although this may only be a rumour. What is your view?
Mr. Sarrafi: I think it is positive to organize an event at Shah Golu or anywhere else—but not as a substitute for the Babak Castle event. A separate event could be arranged at another time and for another occasion.
I believe the Babak Castle event will take place on schedule this year. Last year, it was obstructed to some extent, and for that reason it was not as strong as in previous years. This year, however, will be different. We will all assemble and hold the event as we did in earlier years.
Ali Abbasi: Some nationalist friends believe that people with other political views cannot participate in our national movement. For example, they emphasize a person’s former affiliations and argue that this individual has no right to advocate our national demands.
Mr. Sarrafi: I do not believe that all nationalists hold this view. Perhaps some of them think this way.
In my opinion, a person’s present position is more important.
Ali Abbasi: Different tendencies exist among us. Some people are more radical, while others are more conservative. Should we exclude them from the movement?
Mr. Sarrafi: I believe it is in our interest—and in the interest of every political individual or group—not to reject those who are somewhat more radical or more conservative than ourselves. We should not open fronts against them; we should keep them beside us. There must be room for everyone.
Radicals and conservatives may each have a particular role and responsibility. Palestine needs both Hamas and Fatah.
We should remember that many circumstances change as time passes. They—or perhaps even we ourselves—may become more radical or more conservative in the future. Destroying the trenches behind and ahead of us contradicts the principles of struggle. The time may come when we are compelled to change our position. How could we then take shelter in a trench that we destroyed with our own hands?
Ali Abbasi: What about other political groups?
Mr. Sarrafi: It is appropriate to maintain contact and negotiate with political groups and individuals who do not consider themselves part of the national movement but are interested in it. Entrusting them with the movement’s work, however, would be entirely wrong.
We must maintain channels of communication with them and attempt to bring their sincere members into step with us.
Ultimately, such groups and individuals must clearly state their positions: Will they defend Azerbaijan’s national interests, or will they ultimately side with the chauvinists?
Ali Abbasi: Why do you think some people enter into conflict with everyone even though they themselves cannot accomplish anything significant?
Mr. Sarrafi: If a movement wishes to grow, it must possess the power of attraction, not repulsion. It should seek to draw outside forces into itself rather than drive those already inside away.
A weak manager dislikes a capable employee. A weak manager and weak employees can produce only weak work.
Great work can be accomplished by capable managers and capable employees. Every organization must continually renew itself, and both its leaders and its members must improve their knowledge and abilities with each passing day.
Ali Abbasi: Mr. Sarrafi, a deeply troubling atmosphere exists in several Azerbaijani cities, including Tabriz. Unfortunately, whenever someone attempts to take a step or undertake some work for the national movement, they are immediately labelled. By attaching different labels to individuals and spreading disinformation about political and cultural figures, some people attempt to damage their credibility, dignity, and reputation. Is that not the case? Does this toxic atmosphere exist only in Tabriz, or is it also evident in other cities?
Mr. Sarrafi: I believe this situation exists to varying degrees in our other cities as well. Conditions in Tabriz are not dramatically different. Indeed, they are better than in some of our other cities.
Ali Abbasi: What can be done to eliminate this toxic atmosphere? How can we change this hostile or negative climate? What should we do?
Mr. Sarrafi: Ali Bey, the atmosphere is not quite so hostile! What has happened?
It would have been better to ask, “What should we not do?” rather than “What should we do?”
One solution is that we must not contribute to this negative atmosphere ourselves. If someone speaks against me or spreads disinformation about me, I should not retaliate by doing the same to them. I must not slander someone merely to defend myself.
The only thing that must be defended is the movement’s collective credibility. If attacks against me do not harm the movement, let them attack me. If they do harm the movement, then I must put myself aside and defend the movement.
Another solution is for our periodicals and websites to exercise caution. When they receive submissions attacking or discrediting individuals, they should publish them only after conducting appropriate checks. They must examine where the allegations originated and determine how many credible people corroborate them.
Who is making the accusation? Is the author a recognized person, or an unknown and fictitious individual using a false signature to attack a well-known figure?
I do not believe that someone who genuinely considers themselves a nationalist would normally engage in such conduct. These activities may be carried out by our chauvinist adversaries, who are capable of spreading such rumours. We all know that periodicals published inside Iran are sometimes compelled to print defamatory material. The same material may then be submitted to websites under fabricated names. Unlike newspapers, however, websites have considerable freedom. They must exercise caution and refuse to publish such exchanges.
Fortunately, many of our websites do not publish these malicious writings, although one or two occasionally lose control.
Ali Abbasi: As the Babak Castle Congress approaches, discussion about it is increasing. It has been decided that this year’s national congress will be held on the ninth and tenth days of Tir. On the other hand, it is said that several individuals in Tabriz are encouraging people to assemble at Shah Golu instead of travelling to Babak Castle this year—although this may only be a rumour. What is your view?
Mr. Sarrafi: I think it is positive to organize an event at Shah Golu or anywhere else—but not as a substitute for the Babak Castle event. A separate event could be organized at another time and for another occasion.
I believe the Babak Castle event will take place on schedule this year. Last year, it was obstructed to some extent, and for that reason it was not as strong as those held in previous years. This year, however, will be different. We will all assemble and hold the event as we did in earlier years.
Ali Abbasi: In your view, what is the nature of the Babak Castle assembly? What message do those who travel to the castle convey? Do all participants gather there in protest, or does the commemoration of Babak itself draw them there? Do they go there to engage in political struggle?
Mr. Sarrafi: I have attended the Babak Castle event since its first year. Consider this: those who chant slogans constitute only a limited number of participants. I am not saying whether this is good or bad. I merely wish to point out that if, for example, 500,000 people attend, perhaps 1,000 of them chant slogans; 99.5 percent do not.
Of course, those who do not chant are not necessarily opposed to those who do. They may even agree with them. But they do not want the event to be disrupted by disorder.
The display of a flag belongs to the same category. In the first year that a flag appeared, a group introduced it as the flag of South Azerbaijan. I do not think anyone present regarded this as something bad. However, not everyone gathered around it; only some participants did.
Why did they not consider it objectionable? Because a flag is a symbol. Like the name of a nation, it represents that nation’s identity. If an Azerbaijani nation exists and has a name, it is entirely natural for it to have a flag representing its identity.
Why did everyone not gather around it? Because, my brother, you should introduce your flag at an event you have organized yourself, at another place or occasion.
Ali Abbasi: Does a flag not signify a demand for independence?
Mr. Sarrafi: Chauvinists attempt to portray it as a demand for independence. This merely exposes their ignorance. Economic institutions and sports teams also have flags because each possesses a distinct identity.
In the past, there was an emblem representing the provinces. At the very least, could this flag not be the emblem of the organization that created it? What does that have to do with demanding independence?
Some among us also oppose it because they interpret the matter differently. They say, “Because I do not seek independence, I oppose the flag.” Yet a flag is an emblem that simply represents an identity. It is a symbol expressing identity, not a symbol inherently associated with a demand for independence.
Every government ministry in Iran has a flag. Even hotels have flags. Why should people be so alarmed by a flag and turn it into a bogeyman? Only someone disturbed by the very name of Azerbaijan would be disturbed by its flag. Let them be disturbed.
Ali Abbasi: Mr. Sarrafi, with your permission, I would like us to speak more openly about the disinformation directed against those who live in Tabriz and serve Azerbaijan. Some people are now being discredited by being labelled leftists. Could you speak about this?
Mr. Sarrafi: Give me an example.
Ali Abbasi: Mr. Manouchehr Azizi, for instance.
Mr. Sarrafi: I know Mr. Azizi. He has long followed this path—the path of Azerbaijan. Although some may question whether he is genuinely a leftist—you can ask genuine leftists about that—there can be no doubt about his commitment to Azerbaijan.
We know that the collapse of the Soviet Union dealt a major blow to the foundations of leftism. By contrast, Azerbaijani and Turkish national consciousness revived. People who had once sought to pursue their Azerbaijani ideals through leftist currents naturally discovered new paths and continued their commitment to Azerbaijan.
I see the present Mr. Azizi as a continuation of that same dedicated young man. He has not changed; he has merely gained more experience. The world and its circumstances have changed, and once he found a setting more appropriate to his aspirations, he sought a new path through which to continue working for Azerbaijan.
Ali Abbasi: Can we oppose a person’s efforts on behalf of our national demands because of their past activities?
Mr. Sarrafi: How could we do that? Look at other countries: a person votes for one party, but if that party does not act according to their expectations, they will probably vote for another.
Consider how many people voted for Khatami eight years ago and again four years ago. Millions of Azerbaijanis voted for him eight years ago. But do they still hold exactly the same views today? Certainly not. Should we therefore deny them the right to join us?
People study and learn through action and experience. They come to recognize their friends and enemies, their understanding becomes more complete, and they may revise their views.
Ali Abbasi: Various parties, organizations, and ideological currents now exist in Iran, including the national-religious groups. How does the Azerbaijani national movement differ from these parties, organizations, and currents?
Mr. Sarrafi: The Azerbaijani movement is a social movement. It is gradually developing a political identity and moving toward the establishment of its own political organizations. The organizations you mentioned, however, are purely political bodies without a social movement behind them.
Because ours is a social movement, it includes a wide range of tendencies. It is also young, and many young people and students constitute a major source of its potential.
By contrast, many political groups in Iran have entered old age. Unless they rejuvenate themselves, they may die. Our movement possesses enthusiasm, vitality, and boldness. Those groups cannot act in the same way. They measure a hundred times and may never make a single cut. Because our movement is young and relatively inexperienced, however, we may also make mistakes.
Ali Abbasi: Can you identify some of these mistakes?
Mr. Sarrafi: This takes us back to the first part of our discussion. For example, creating rumours and spreading disinformation within our own ranks are among our mistakes. Other political organizations and currents do not conduct their affairs this way.
Members of the Freedom Movement, for instance, do not sit in coffeehouses and conduct their deliberations there. We do. We sit in places lacking proper principles, discuss our most important affairs, and fail to preserve confidentiality.
There is a difference between speaking after carefully refining one’s thoughts and speaking from one’s rough notes. We share our rough notes far too often.
Ali Abbasi: Last month, a Women’s Congress was held in Tabriz for the first time to mark International Women’s Day. Although the organizers wished to conduct it in our mother language, they were prohibited from doing so. Yet the congress did not even formally protest this restriction. Why?
Mr. Sarrafi: It would be better to ask the organizers themselves. In any event, most members of the organizing committee decided to proceed with the congress.
I should also mention that the participation documents distributed at the congress were written in both Turkish and Persian. Summaries of all the Turkish-language papers were published in a small booklet and distributed at the congress. The organizers have said that they will publish the papers in full.
Ali Abbasi: What if they had refused to hold it?
Mr. Sarrafi: Naturally, they could have refused. In fact, that was precisely what the opposing side wanted.
As an Azerbaijani citizen, I must express my gratitude to those who organized it. I wish they had been able to conduct it exactly as they desired. Yet we should not forget that we have endured even harsher conditions.
Suppose someone wishes to give their child an authentically Turkish name. They resist the restrictions but cannot find a solution. Should they refuse to obtain an identity document for their child in order to express their protest? Should they allow the entire undertaking to collapse from within?
There were protests, of course. More importantly, most of the significant papers were presented.
In my view, this congress was a foundation stone, and laying it was better than not laying it at all.
Ali Abbasi: Will any other events be held in the near future?
Mr. Sarrafi: We will probably hold an event honouring Dr. Javad Heyat in Khordad—provided the cat does not sneeze!
Ali Abbasi: As a final question, I would be interested in hearing about Dilmaj. Has it achieved its objectives? How are its sales?
Mr. Sarrafi: Dilmaj is progressing well. We have not yet achieved our objectives, but we are moving toward them. I am not dissatisfied with its sales.
Ali Abbasi: Thank you.
Tabriz
April 7, 2005 (Farvardin 18, 1384)
Read the original interview in Turkish written in the Arabic script